Orchestral Journeys, w. Tirke Linnemann

If you think classical music just isn't for you, maybe this first episode could persuade you to try a symphony or two. 
Orchestral music is an incredibly powerful medium for engaging with emotions we might not otherwise be willing or able to face - and we do need to be able to allow and fully experience all, not just some of our emotions, if we are to thrive.

Musician, writer and teacher Frances Butt interviews cellist Tirke Linnemann about what classical music does for her; with a few suggestions for listeners along the way.

Here are the pieces discussed, for anyone who wants to listen to any of them:
Brahms Symphony no. 1 
(Leonard Bernstein, Vienna Philharmonic)
Tchaikovsky Symphony no. 6 
(Tugan Sokhiev, National Orchestra of Toulouse)
Rachmaninov Symphony no. 2 
(André Previn, London Symphony Orchestra
Beethoven Piano Concerto no. 1 
(Martha Argerich, Gábor Takács-Nagy, Liszt Ferenc Academy of Music)
Bach Cello Suites (YoYo Ma)
(special mention for Suite 5 Sarabande)
--
Recorded January 2021
Re-edited January 2022
Other music: Frances

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Transcript

ORCHESTRAL JOURNEYS : Frances Butt and Tirke Linnemann

Frances Butt 0:21  

Hello, and welcome to this first in a series of podcasts about how the arts help us with our emotions in so many ways. In the Coronavirus pandemic, as concerts and shows and festivals were being cancelled and venues closed, it became clearer than ever, because we were losing them, just how much we need the arts; which got me pondering on why they're so important and how they help us. because they really do. 

My name is Frances Butt. I used to write and perform music, but now I teach the Alexander Technique, which is all about how the way we think determines the way we act and move, for better or worse. I'm not a psychologist, but I've spent a good few years studying human function, and particularly, recently, the subject of emotions; how they will work and what they're all for - because they're significant components of our cognitive function. Our brains are constantly processing, creating and reinforcing connections and associations. So we're all continually building our own personal understanding of emotions, each according to our experiences, and our interpretations of those experiences. And collectively, we've also developed shared cultural understanding and language for emotions. 

But what happens when we ignore, deny or suppress particular feelingsm for example, anger, anxiety or shame, is that they can become recurrent or stuck in painful loops - sometimes to a pathological degree, in which case it's vital to seek professional help. We might put on a brave smile, hoping to smother our distress by sheer will. But while happiness is lovely, and we all enjoy it, it doesn't fit every situation. We need all the emotions at different times.  And we can't reason our way out of a downer, either. If logical intelligence was the answer, there'd never be any sad clever people, would there? Hmm.  

So how can we work through our feelings without becoming too terrified or paralysed by them? Well, possibly the most brilliant way is to create or experience other people's creations in art, music, literature, theatre, dance, and so on. Art gives our lives meaning and fulfilment. It's central to our health, and when necessary, our healing. So I thought it might be interesting to talk to some creative artists I know about their particular forms of artistic expression, and their experiences of art with regard to the emotions, I may be talking to some familiar names at some point, but I'm going to start closer to home. 

So I hope you might like to join us in these explorations and celebrations of the emotions in the arts, and maybe look at some of the great artists who've helped us to both bear life's pain and suffering and celebrate the joy and lightness of the human soul.

Frances Butt 3:51  

In this first episode, I'll be talking to my sister, Tirke Linnemann. She's a cellist and music teacher who was for some years a member of the Halle orchestra; so she has some tremendous experience of world-class orchestral music playing, and I'm sure she'll have some great insights into performing and experiencing the sensations created by a composer's palette of emotional colours. So off we go, and I hope you enjoy our chat 

Tirke it's great to see you again, nice to see you again.  How are you today?

Tirke Linnemann 4:38  

Okay this morning, yesterday a bit punch drunk after all the goings on in the States Capitol and the consequences which we think you know what's coming here. But today, yeah, pretty positive. Thank you.

Frances Butt 4:54  

Great. And well thank you very much for joining me here on podcast number one! It's really lovely of you to 'step up to the rostrum' and help me with this. I hope people might find our conversation interesting. I know I'm going to.  We're just going to talk mainly about orchestral music today; but if you're not a classical music lover, please don't switch off necessarily - you may still find it interesting. I hope so! Anyway, my first question to you is: what have we lost, do you think, music-wise, during this pandemic?

Tirke Linnemann 5:31  

This is a personal thing. I mean, we're all human beings. So I hope this is true for everybody - but certainly what I have lost is musical friendships - you know, people who have I communicate with on a wordless level and create beautiful things. That's my greatest loss. And I'm you know, I'm sure on a wider scale, I'm sure all musicians feel the same about that. But listeners to music have lost, you know, live music, have lost that that fabulous palette of colour and and communal experience that the arts give them

Frances Butt 6:10  

We really need that that; we do need people; need family rituals, friendship rituals. Celebrations of passages of life.  Certainly artistic rituals that are shared are such a vital component for any group of people who are to live well together, and thrive. And classical music concerts really are a great example of artistic ritual. They're kind of - they have a lovely form to them. And as you're a classical muso, why do you think classical music is particularly good in this way - not just for the musicians and the privileged, but for anyone?  It has a special thing I think; it has a particular flavour and gifts to it, but...

Tirke Linnemann 6:51  

Well, what do I think about that? Well, as you say, as a classical musician, I don't really know much else. On a personal level, classical music is the is the wordless picture, the wordless - what would you call it? - experience, wordless creation. That has swept me along all my life, given me a lot, just a reason for doing what I do, but it's given me all my friendships, give me a give me a creative life. And without that, I think we feel pretty dead. Yeah. Creating something.

Yeah, that creativity...

 Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I'm sure that you know, rock musicians and folk musicians, but it feels the same, but it's but the the orchestra. The orchestra is a phenomenal construct.

Frances Butt 7:48  

It - it - and we were talking about kind of different tribes, again, aren't we, here, and there's a community of particular music, this genre. Yeah, so that's another community.

Tirke Linnemann 7:59  

Yes. And within the orchestra, you've got that, you know, you've got the - the string community and the wind community.

Frances Butt 8:05  

Yeah, within an orchestra, you get your tribes. That's interesting, but in terms of, of how music of any kind - and for the purposes of this conversation, classical music - help us with our... how do you think they help us with our feelings? I mean, I have a particular idea about how I think they work for us. But do you have any particular ideas about how they help us with our emotions, these events and these pieces of music and how they're put together to make a shared experience?

Tirke Linnemann 8:39  

Yeah, for me I think it's the wordless thing. You know, words have always got in the way .  You know, I'm not, I'm not particularly articulate. But when it comes to the deeper stuff, and your own personal journeys, it's all emotion. It's all emotion. And you know, some people are wonderfully articulate when it comes to their emotions, but it's for me, and dare I say for a lot of musicians it's it's it's there in the music. You do it instead of say it, and play it instead of say it. And so the whatever music you're playing, the form, the journey of it, the shape of it, you're expressing your emotions - I think I said before, whether it be an upward curve or a downward curve, you go on that journey.  And your emotions are articulated in a constructive and healthy way. And, you know, the journey has a beginning, a middle and an end. You know, so you've, you've gone through something, you've articulated something and you come out the other end with a sense of accomplishment or a sense of - (sigh) 'did that'.

 Yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah. And if feelings are always coming up and sort of rising and falling within us, all these different emotions that are relevant to our situations, I think one fantastic thing about music is that it's a safe way to move your feelings through you and to and to be with them to allow yourself to feel them and release them; particularly when they're painful ones.  A safe way - all kinds of human feelings - and then have this feeling of being better by the end of it, by the end of the piece of music or concert or whatever. There's there is a relief, and a - 'Oh, yeah, that's better now'. Yeah.

Yeah. That word 'safety': I think, you know, the safe way, I think that's really important. Because we can't all find a person that we are safe to articulate our deepest feelings and emotions to or with or, or even if we were safe, they might not understand it. But with music, you can even go through that journey and you understand what's going on. You can feel all this stuff and it's, it's safe. It's safe to do that. Yeah. So you can't, you can't be playing with tears running down your face the whole time; but internally, you know that that's, you know, that's what's going on, and you let it happen.

Yeah, there's so it's so somewhere safe to take your feelings without necessarily having to have them overwhelm you and overrun you

Or embarrass you!  You know, "oh, I can't possibly say that to everybody or let everybody see that part of me." You know?

Yeah. Also, yeah, there's somewhere appropriate where it's okay if you shed a tear or feel roused and inspired and fierce, or, yeah, that's great, actually. Yes, so you're not going to get laughed at or derided or judged for feeling... that's really, that's really important.

And you move other people into the same place in themselves.

Frances Butt  11:35  

As a player?

Tirke Linnemann 11:51  

As a player.  If you if you are really contacting your own emotions, and putting them into the music in this wordless way. Other people will be touched by it. And access that place in themselves, whatever the music, classical or whatever. I think that's a wonderful thing. You reach people.

Frances Butt 12:12  

It's magic. Yeah, the performer-listener relationship is a whole magic of its own with that, isn't it, and you need the listener as player, to have that shared experience. So that's wonderful as well, isn't it? So, many people have never had a chance to get into orchestral music at all these days. And it's funny, you know, it's just a matter of opportunity. So why do you think it's still relevant today? You know, some people say this dead people's music, sort of... what can it do for us that other kinds of music don't, do you think? I mean, you say you're 'only a classical musician', but you hear other kinds of music.  Can you say in basic terms, can you talk a little about what an orchestra is, and the, you know,  the soundscapes it creates, and you know, what it's made up of and how it works? 

Tirke Linnemann 13:02  

Yeah. Again, as a classical musician, it was - it was a ritual of it always used to be: overture>concerto>symphony; and you knew what the framework was 

Frances Butt 13:18  

- Of a concert, when you went to one? 

Tirke Linnemann 13:20  

Yeah, exactly. And maybe pop musicians know the same or people who go to pop concerts...

Frances Butt  13:20  

Oh, there's certainly a setlist that's put in a certain order where you know you're going to, yeah, create a popular thing first, and then yes, you slow things, and the big favourite at the end, and all that. Yeah, definitely. 

Unknown Speaker  13:39  

That sort of thing. Yeah. So you know, that's coming. The concert hall itself: this wonderful expression that Stephen Hough hears, that the concert hall itself is a musical instrument that you know, the vibrations and what you're creating in there with the listeners as well with their emotions, because let's face it, you know, emotions and lots of people's emotions create something in the atmosphere, in the air. You know, it's like going into a church where people have prayed for centuries. 

Frances Butt 14:11  

Vibes. It's the vibes!

Tirke Linnemann 14:13  

Yeah, it's the vibe right. So there's all that you're going in there to pick up on and then create something. That's a wonderful thing to be part of.

Unknown Speaker 14:25  

Literal vibrations - physical physiological vibrations as well isn't there, so, frequencies and yeah, sound waves that hit you in the body in different places. Yeah, physically. Yeah. 

Tirke Linnemann 14:37  

Yeah. Like we mentioned the other day, you know - to allow yourself to be moved.  The timpani at the beginning of Brahms 1, you know, that will without fail always get me in the gut.  And listen to it loud!  I always, you know I always say, um, because it's, you know, an orchestra is loud, and if you put Brahms 1 on but you just do it quietly... you know, what's that about?! So yeah, listen to it full blast.  And then you're swept up, then you'll be swept up.

Frances Butt 17:19  

Yeah. Oh, that's a nice thing that you're swept - that's true, you're swept up in something you're swept along in something. You're carried along on an emotional journey. Yes, that's a really good example, Brahms 1, because there are emotions happening and you think, 'I don't know what the story is here, I'm actually feeling the emotions without there being a narrative'. Feeling it and things happening. It's just the emotions themselves, changing from one to another and multiples at the same time and it's extraordinary.

Tirke Linnemann 17:49  

Yes. You're taken to places, you're taking two places in yourself. Yeah, this this thing about creating something in the air; the best example of that, that I remember was the end of the Tchaikovsky Pathetique, where the basses disappear at the end with this pulse. Amazing. And it just disappears, and it's so, so low that you have to strain to hear it, and then the conductor just stands there, with his hands still up. Has this finished? Are they still going? And I remember this this was a Prom concert. And some prat in the audience - "I know it's finished" - and they started clapping - and then there was a pitter patter of applause, and the audience went - 'aughh'.  There was a you know, there was an audible gasp in the audience, because everybody was in this place with this unbelievable atmosphere that had been created.. And then, the silence, or so-called silence, was even longer, because everybody was trying to process what had happened. So there was this Thing, and yeah. And eventually the conductor's arms went down and, you know, deflated. 

Frances Butt 19:11  

Ohh... Here's a shorter example of the same problem, with the National Orchestra of the Capital of Toulouse conducted by Tugan Sokhiev.

Tirke Linnemann 19:19  

I'll never forget that; but it always struck me that we had created something out there. 

Frances Butt 21:37  

Yeah, OK, someone's smashed through it, yeah. Wow. Oh, that's a really good example of - yeah, the evidence that something special was going on there. Interrupted like that. Yeah. Amazing. Now, you're a cellist and there are different - obviously, the orchestra is a big soundscape made up of different instruments together, all kinds of different instruments that create different sounds, and create different moods and effects and and emotions with the sounds they can make, and you're a cellist. And cello is one of the most versatile instruments isn't it in the orchestra, so it can be high and singing and crying and chopping and scratching and plucking and pinging and 'basing' and it really is so versatile; but can you remember what drew you to the cello originally - apart from the fact that our dad played the cello? 

Tirke Linnemann 22:31  

Yeah, that was big. 

Frances Butt 22:32  

Yeah it must have been part of it. 

Tirke Linnemann 22:33  

That was big. That was big. 

Frances Butt 22:35  

Really? It meant that you heard the nice sound of it.

Tirke Linnemann 22:38  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I distinctly remember literally sitting at his feet when he was playing. And being mesmerised by - probably, as it was big!  I once had a pupil and I asked, why did you take up a chair and he said, "Cos it was big!"  A very good reason! Yeah. But yeah, it was it was Pa, it was a connection with Pa, it was the beauty of the sound. It was you know if I play the cello, this cello is going to be mine.  It's going to be my friend. Because we all played the piano, but the piano belong to everybody in the house, remember? And I remember thinking if I have a cello, it will be my friend. My friend for creating these beautiful sounds on.

Frances Butt 23:26  

And it is. It's more than a friend to you, isn't it?  So what is your relationship with this instrument, which is creating this incredible experience for you every time you play it, every day? It's more than a friend. It's actually a part of your identity in a huge way. 

Tirke Linnemann 23:43  

It is. It is because I speak with it. I speak with it, I sing with it, I dance with it. You know however badly I play. That's why I do it, whether whether people go oh gosh, that's out of tune... But for me, I'm singing, I'm speaking, I'm dancing, I'm moving.

Frances Butt 23:59  

I think we'll have another conversation about "how  however badly I played it" - you're a professional orchestral musician!  Um, we will have a conversation at some point about perfectionism and shame and music because that's a huge conversation, but that's for another day. Yeah, it's a huge one. So yeah, I think musicians might be interested in that for a conversation. But coming back to the symphony, there are lots of different kinds of pieces of music that orchestra plays, but um, symphony is probably makes up the main course. of most orchestral concerts, still, I would have thought. So could you give us some basics about what a symphony is. how it's made and, you know, has a construction and a shape and, and why you think that's proved to work so well over you know, it's become also such a successful format of a piece of music or piece? 

Tirke Linnemann 24:55  

Yeah, I'm not a historian. So I can only speak from from the play player's point of view. And the listener Yes. So a symphony traditionally has four movements, right through from Mozart. Haydn, Beethoven and beyond, into romantic 19th and 20th century composers. But for me, it's always the journey, and the balance of being able to have an introductory movement, you know - 'this is me, this is where we are'. And then there's always a slow movement in which you're allowed to express emotions, feel emotions and pass them on to the listener. There's always a joyous movement or a dance movement. So you can, after the emotional one, you can, you know, you can have a deep breath and then dance, you know; so it's yes, it's always that I think the balance of emotions within those movements has always been very good. And maybe that's what composers aim for in, in deciding when a symphony is finished. Is there balance in there - how does a composer know when they've finished-

Frances Butt 26:07  

Like a painter though, you know, just knowing when to leave it alone.

Tirke Linnemann 26:10  

Yes, when the last splodge goes on. 

One more - what's the Amadeus thing, in the movie Amadeus? One - 'change one note, and diminishment'. So you know, there's this point where it's become - if you don't want to ruin it.

Yeah, that means that the composition is  some ways beyond you. And then somehow, you know, there must be a deep, deep sigh. Yeah. 

Frances Butt 26:37  

That's done. Yeah. Yeah, I really recommend, as soon as anyone is able, go and have the experience of listening to a live classical music concert, it will take you on an emotional journey like no other, really.  And it can be difficult to sit still - people can't sit still for long enough now, can they? Which is probably why they like other forms of music because they can jump about and make noises. Yeah, you have to be a bit polite, in a classical concert. You have to be quiet and sit still and not say, "I know it's finished now!"

Tirke Linnemann 27:09  

Yeah, that's changing though. That - that's changing. Well, it would always be, you know, you always dressed up to go to the concert. The musicians always wore black and tails. The men wore tails and women wore black.  I mean that's something I loved about and still love about the ritual of the concert. It's so special. You get ready as if you're going on a date. 

Frances Butt 27:34  

That is part of the ritual, isn't it? It really is. 

Tirke Linnemann 27:36  

Yeah, that's beautiful. But now you know, you see orchestras with the blokes can wear a coloured tie, or the ladies all wear a coloured top; you know, it's all coordinated, but there's just that slight easing of the of the formalities.

Frances Butt 27:51  

Right. And as an audience member you don't dress up anymore, really do you? Same with theatre.

Tirke Linnemann 27:57  

Yeah. And there's also this thing about clapping between movements. Now, that gets to me because for the reason we were just talking about, when we were talking about the symphony, and the balance of the symphony, you know, that the composer's created this whole journey for you, and you break it up by inserting your noise. Yes, it's your appreciation, or it's supposed to be, but I'm not sure about that.

Frances Butt 28:23  

Oh, it's interesting, that, the transition from one mood into another mood, I guess. There's there's something called thresholding, where you move from one room to another, from one conversation or one group of people to another you, you change the way you are, to go into the next thing you're going to do.  And how that's conducted, that's an interesting thing. I think that there has to be some consensus about how that's going to be done, I suppose. Yeah.

Tirke Linnemann 28:49  

Yeah. But it's also the ability to be silent. That, you know, as in that Tchaikovsky example, you know, how comfortable are you just to sit there? And between movements, it's that thresholding thing you say; in the silence, some something is going on in the silence. Are you happy and comfortable with, you know, sitting with that and experiencing that rather than having to make a noise?

Frances Butt 29:18  

Yeah. So one thing classical music can really provide for us, then, is if we learn how, well it can help us learn how to be okay with that silence and being with those emotions and feelings without getting in their way, and letting them happen, so that classical music can help us with that.  And also to help us be quiet with each other and not blast through, like that unfortunate audience member did, and break boundaries and learn how to respect our own and other's boundaries, which is so important in a community. Oh, that's really interesting and very helpful. Thank you Tirk. During this pandemic. I've got to ask you now. what's been the most difficult thing for you as a musician?

Tirke Linnemann  29:53  

Losing the musical friends and people I connect with on a deep, wordless level.  Playing my part. Playing my part, you know, being part of a community that sits close to one another, you know, in our personal spaces overlapping; you know, that interpersonal space thing where you come that bit closer and create something on a personal level as well as the bigger musical level.  I miss that terribly. That's the main thing.

Frances Butt  30:26  

And have you been listening to anything more, over this last year, or playing anything particular more, this last year, for yourself?

Tirke Linnemann  30:35  

Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Um, discovery, time of discovery. In lockdown one, I listened to - I was looking for things to listen to. and listen to a Rachmaninoff Second Symphony, which blew me away. I mean, I adored it before, but I suddenly wanted to listen to it all the time because it kept sweeping me along on its magisterial journey.

Tirke Linnemann 31: 57
With loads of joy in there, loads of sorrow in there, all the things that I wanted to experience, and which I do experience when I'm playing in an orchestra, but which are lost. 

Frances Butt  32:08  

So that's another good one for the YouTube, people, Rachmaninoff Second Symphony. Put the headphones on, turn it up loud and let yourself be taken on an emotional journey and see how you feel at the end of it. That's something.

Tirke Linnemann  32:21  

Yeah, and you can watch the musicians and see how they interact. I mean, that can be fun. But it can also be very emotional. Yesterday I was watching or listening to, can't remember, a symphonic piece on YouTube, and I was watching the principal flautist and the oboist, who sit next to each other in an orchestra and close, you know, well within each other's spaces. And very often paying off each other, either playing the same tune together so they would, you know, they would turn to each other; or play a little duet, so they were playing off each other. It was just a beautiful thing to watch. So if you don't know anything about orchestras, just watch what the people are doing and how they interact. Yeah, that was a smashing thing. But as far as playing myself, Bach has been my big discovery - not that I didn't know about Bach before. But I went back to the Suites that I studied when I was at College. And  every day - that was in the second lockdown I discovered this. That a bit of Bach a day keeps the doctor away, or something - keeps keeps the blues away!

Frances Butt  34:16  

How does it help you, how do they help you, a Cello Suite a day, as it were?

Tirke Linnemann  34:19  

Yes. If I - particularly if I was feeling a bit down, it just took me away from myself, or my conscious self. You know, it took me into a harmonic world that had a shape of its own. By the time I finished playing it, I had forgotten why I was down.  Or my thoughts that were dragging me down, my unconscious thoughts that were dragging me down had gone. It was in a different place.

Frances Butt  34:46  

So not necessarily taking yourself away from yourself, but taking yourself away from certain things and into other things in your in yourself

Tirke Linnemann  34:58  

In myself, yes, into the unconscious creation that is music. I think this is a lovely thing about learning a piece is that you know, it's all very conscious to start with.  The notes and the fingering and the bowing and the - but then when you perform it, then  you're on a different level, and you're you're reaching unconscious places in yourself. There's one one of the Bach Suites -  I mean, they're all just magnificent - the fifth one which is  the fifth one in C minor, for those who know that sort of stuff, the Sarabande is the most extraordinary piece I would say ever written for a stringed instrument, or any instrument, but for a stringed instrument.  Harmonically it just - some would say it just meanders, and you think where's this going, and then it takes you somewhere quite unexpected and then it's very mournful. Very soulful. It's gentle. So you get pulled along in this beautiful, endless gentle line. And then at the end, is it a being (sigh), that when you breathe out, you feel this sense of downward peace. The last bar goes up. And so you end up being taken up. You're breathing goes up, your eyes go up, metaphorically speaking, to heaven!  it lifts you. But not with a sort of conclusion, it's a sort of - 'off I go', you float off into the - you know, into the ether. It is just the most extraordinary piece.

Tirke Linnemann 37:35
So that's a wonderful thing.  But there are, you know, but in the other suites, number One number Three, there are lovely jigs, fabulous jigs. They nearly all end with a great jig so they always leave you dancing.

Frances Butt  37:45  

So many moods in the in the Cello Suites.

Tirke Linnemann  37:36  

Yes. The end of Beethoven's first piano concerto, yes.  He ends with this joyous, you know, you just want to dance out at the end of it. I think lots of composers know to do that. They take you on an emotional journey. And then they say 'now dance. Now go off and dance'.

Frances Butt  38:05  

Oh, there's an extra, we've got a bonus piece here. We've got Bach Cello suites and now we've got Beethoven's first piano concerto was one of my very favourite things. It's so full of fun. Very funny - it's got very funny bits in it.

Frances Butt 29:04
I think we've gone on quite a journey here. ourselves, haven't we? And I think on another occasion, I would love to talk to you about how - with examples maybe, some more examples - how particular pieces of music might help us with a particular emotion when we really need help with something.  I mean, the world is going through so much grief at the moment, so much fear, so much sadness, so much anger, rightly. We need help. And music is a huge way to help; so I hope to be able to talk to you again. It was really super today. Thanks, Tirke. Thank you, and enjoy your Bach Cello suites. I'm so envious that you can play; what amazing thing to be able to do. But thanks again so much, and speak again soon. 

Tirke Linnemann  39:55  

Yeah, yeah, have a good day. Speak soon.  Bye.

Frances Butt  40:04  

So, some pieces of music there that if you like, you could go and check out, if you don't know them already. Well, our conversation really clarified for me some of the distinctive and potent ways classical music has of taking us where words just can't reach. Of course, there are some art forms that do use words to incredible effect, to touch us deeply as well; because every art form brings its own particular gifts that give expression to our emotions and enrich our lives. And aren't we blessed to have so many kinds, from different cultures all over the world; highbrow, lowbrow, soothing, challenging, celebratory - we need them all. And I hope to explore more of them in future conversations.  

If you enjoyed our chat and would like to hear more, please feel free to like and subscribe, and by all means, share with your friends. So until next time, enjoy keeping all your senses open and alive to whatever makes your life better.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai